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 The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil

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Steve Johnson
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PostSubject: The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil   August 20th 2011, 3:38 pm

This is a conversation which was started elsewhere.

Aldo said...
I think this is the point in which I disagree. I do not accept a God that uses the concept of "knowledge" as a tool in order to determine if his creation would obey or not. It does not matter to me the "difference" of the word "knowledge" today and the usage in the Old Testament (for me there appears to be no difference whatsoever) and today can still be applied as knowledge in our head and knowledge gained by experience. Even if it is referred to as the knowledge of "Good and Evil" God should not have kept knowledge away from his creation. And even less placing the fruit of knowledge as a temptation, man's natural instinct and duty is "To Know"... in order to survive for that is the morality of life. If you do not know you die... the morality of ignorance, the morality of religion is the morality of death.. how can you live without knowing?

By the way, there is someone who wishes to make the whole discussion public, apparently Daniel wishes to see it as well. In the comment thread of Daniel's post appeared "Joey Perez" who has a private online forum for debates. I think we should all move to that place to discuss these issues. What do you think?

Steve Paul Johnson
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Steve Paul Johnson

If you want to move to a public forum, I am willing to. Just send me the link and I'll sign up.

There is a very important difference between "knowledge = information" vs. "knowledge = experience." You know in your head that eating poison is bad for you. You don't have to try it to make sure. That's the difference I was trying to draw. To say that we only have knowledge about something after we've tried it is to say that we are truly ignorant about everything we haven't actually done. But logically that's not the case. I know a lot of things are fun even though I've never done them. Likewise, I know a lot of things are bad having never done them.

I want to respond to why God placed the tree there in the first place, but I am afraid of having two topics running at the same time. Let's finish with the current question and then tackle that one.

Let the fun continue...
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PostSubject: Re: The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil   August 20th 2011, 8:52 pm

I understand how you are trying to approach the point, with "experiential knowledge" yes, but my previous post stands. I do not accept a God that wishes to be obeyed by taunting his "creation" to not eat from the "Tree of Knowledge" since a crave for "Knowledge" is a human characteristic almost an instinct. From the biblical perspective it seems to me that "knowledge" is a bad thing, however you want to define it, experiential knowledge or not experiential, knowledge of good and evil etc. It is still "knowledge".

"You will not surely die, the serpent said to the woman. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil" Genesis 3:15

I go back to my original enquiry:

(1) What was the purpose of the tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden?

The Tree of knowledge illustrated in the opening pages of the bible would provide the light of knowledge to Adam and Eve which were God’s creation. It is stated in the first pages of the bible that God wished Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree for the reason that it would provide his creation with knowledge. Is knowledge evil? According to the angle in which it is stated in the opening pages of the bible it is evil. Was God’s intention to maintain his creation ignorant?

It is plain and simple "hiding knowledge from his creation" that is completely unacceptable from my perspective.

I extended the same theological discussion point to Daniel Russell and this is what he replied:

1) Perhaps Adam at his age, though he looked like a full-grown man, wasn't ready for such knowledge yet but God would have let him eat it later. I don't think he was more than a few years old at that time.

Man never would have been "stupid" if it hadn't known good or evil. It would have 0 moral IQ. I agree that stupidity causes problems, but it was one man's stupidity that caused our problems in the first place. Disobeying God is stupid.

~Daniel Russell

Perhaps the holy dictator did want to maintan his creation ignorant, and I see no proof whatsoever that shows that God might have let Adam and Eve eat from the fruit of the "Tree of Knowledge" later.

These biblical passages are really absurd, sorry to say it but they really are. It seems to me that they were written for a non-analytical audience of people to be taken as entire indisputable "truth" for me it sounds more like a fairy tale for a five year old.

I believe this is the point in which we diverge and you can't use nothing more than your subjective perspective. I do not take anything by faith, I've been asked to believe blindly and to not question but I'm far from doing that. If you have something else to say regarding this point please do so or proceed to introduce the reason why God placed the "Tree of Knowledge" in the garden of Eden.

Thank you for replying and welcome to the forum once again.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil   August 21st 2011, 4:06 pm

Hey Aldo,

You keep referring to the "tree of knowledge." Using half a title can be very dangerous. Please use the full title which is "Tree of knowledge of good and evil." That is the full title.

I agree that knowledge is important. The Bible also holds knowledge as a very important thing to get. It's the "knowledge" of evil that we're talking about here. I understand you're problem with this passage. But it's how God did it. If you don't like it, Ask God to help you understand.

God had given everything in the garden to Adam. EVERYTHING was his to enjoy and do with as he pleased. God only held one thing from him which was God's way of asking Adam, "Do you love Me more than this?" God is still asking us the same question today in different ways. We have to be willing to lay down certain things that we naturally want to have. In order to serve God, we have to be willing to lay those things down and submit to Him. God has hasn't changed His question to His creation in 6,000 years, only His methods.

So I would ask you to stop saying that the Bible says God wanted Adam to remain ignorant. That's not a valid claim. Adam didn't have anything to gain by eating that fruit which God made perfectly clear.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil   August 21st 2011, 9:48 pm

I will ask God then to help me understand... I'll wait for his reply. Because sincerely I can't understand it, and I'm seeing this from an open mind. If there was good and there was evil why did God want to keep the knowledge of evil away from Adam and Eve? wouldn't it have been better if they had known "evil" in order not to fall into "evil ways"? All this besides sounding completely fantastical sounds to me like a parent asking a child not to drink poision while placing it in a bottle of orange juice in the table in front of his nose. Complete nonsense, what is harder to believe is that there is people who see this fairy tale as an event that actually took place. I'm honestly not that naive to believe that. Also, how would the individual who wrote Genesis possibly know that? was he a witness? or did God dictate him the story? I will never accept that fairy tale as truth. Especially since evolution is now an indisputable fact.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil   August 22nd 2011, 1:07 pm

Ah! The topic of Adam and Eve, what a better way of starting out this forum once again from scratch!

one thing we should keep in mind before we discuss this, is something very simple. God knows it all_

Having this in mind, there is no past or present to him, no future, etc. He lives in every time frame and knows it all before it even happens, he knows what he is going to decide before he even decides it.

He knew that Adam and Eve were going to screw up, he knew the devil was going to intrude the "perfect garden".

Why did god allow it?
Why did god create the devil in the first place? Punching bag perhaps? To blame everything on perhaps? Or maybe to making this world a little more interesting.

I dont have much to say in regards of Adam and Eve, for im sure i will only be pointing out questions and events that many theist have already ignored.

That said, im sure that Adam and Eve never really existed. Nor will someones book convince me. circular logic is just sort of annoying to me. Look at it this way, i can create a book that say im right on everything i say, every time you tell me im wrong, i will just bust out my book and tell you "NO!, CANT YO See? ITS Right! here! im right!" So please, the bible as solid proof is not solid proof.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil   August 22nd 2011, 6:19 pm

Aldo and Joey,

I love defending my faith. But I believe God has called me to be discerning in who I invest my time into. I love you both and want to see you experience the joy and peace that I do, but I can't force it on you. So if you don't want it, I bow out.

I realized just today as I worked that people have to be willing to humble themselves before God in order to receive His grace which saves us. He loves you both so much and wants you to be reconciled to Himself. I hope that someday you will.

God bless, Steve
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PostSubject: Re: The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil   August 23rd 2011, 9:01 am

Steve Johnson wrote:
Aldo and Joey,

I love defending my faith. But I believe God has called me to be discerning in who I invest my time into. I love you both and want to see you experience the joy and peace that I do, but I can't force it on you. So if you don't want it, I bow out.

I realized just today as I worked that people have to be willing to humble themselves before God in order to receive His grace which saves us. He loves you both so much and wants you to be reconciled to Himself. I hope that someday you will.

God bless, Steve

That understood Steve. But i dont think i need God in my life. I seem to living a rather peaceful life full of art and love. My life is fine as it is.

One question, why do people of faith always assume that non-believers are miserable? Or, "they need the love of god so badly"?

Simple honest question here.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil   August 23rd 2011, 7:01 pm

It is my exact same thought, people of faith seem to assume that non-believers are miserable. I enjoy a peaceful life and have the grace to have a promising future full of triumphs and happiness.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil   January 29th 2012, 6:38 pm


There are a lot of reasons why you are miserable. Which 99% of the time you won't notice because you're too busy with your earthly fulfillment, and not living as a true spirit. You're just living as flesh with a glorified intelligence as the animal man, just slightly better than the beasts of the field and 'really don't know the difference' between True Life and Earthly animal life.

But, here's the place where those who "Reject" God, these words are directly from Jesus Christ, God.


Notebook: 1945
Page: 75-80

January 15 1944

Jesus says:

"Once I had you see the Monster of the abyss. Today I shall speak to you about his kingdom. I can't always keep you in Paradise. Remember that your mission is to recall certain truths for your brothers and sisters who have forgotten them excessively. And from this forgetfulness, which is really disdain for eternal truths, many evils come to men.

"Write down this painful page, then. Afterwards you will be comforted. It is the night of Friday. Write while looking at your Jesus, who died on the cross amidst such torments that they are comparable to those of hell and who wanted that death to save men from Death.

"The men of this time no longer believe in the existence of Hell. They have invented an afterlife according to their taste such as to be less terrorizing for their conscience, deserving of great punishment. More or less faithful disciples of the Spirit of Evil, they know their conscience would draw back from certain misdeeds if it really believed in Hell just the way Faith teaches that it is; they know that their conscience, after committing the misdeed, would turn back upon itself and find repentance in remorse and, with repentance, the way to return to Me.

"Their malice, instructed by Satan, whose servants or slaves they are (according to the degree of adherence to the desires and suggestions of the Evil One), does not want these acts of withdrawal and turning back on themselves. It thus cancels out faith in Hell as it really is and manufactures another one--if it goes so far as to manufacture it--which is nothing but a pause to make a dash for other, future elevations.

"It pushes this opinion to the point of believing sacrilegiously that the greatest of all sinners of mankind, the favorite son of Satan, the one who was a thief, as stated in the Gospel, who was lascivious and anxious for human glory, as I state, the Iscariot, who through the hunger of the threefold concupiscence became a merchant of the Son of God and for thirty coins and with the sign of the kiss--a ridiculous monetary value and an infinite emotional value--placed Me in the hands of the executioners, can be redeemed and arrive at Me by passing through successive stages.

"No. If he was the sacrilegious one par excellence, I am not. If he was the unjust one par excellence, I am not. If he was the one who shed my Blood with disdain, I am not. And to forgive Judas would be sacrilege for my Divinity, betrayed by him; it would be injustice towards 'all' other men, who are always less blameworthy than he and are still punished for their sins; it would be disdain for my Blood; finally, it would be to neglect my laws.

"I said--I, the Triune God--that what is destined for Hell endures in it for eternity, for people do not emerge from that death to a new resurrection. I said that 'fire' is eternal and that all the scandalous and workers of iniquity shall be gathered together in it. And do not think, either, that this will be until the moment of the end of the world. No, because, on the contrary, after the tremendous review, that dwelling of weeping and torment will become even more atrocious, since what is still granted to its lodgers for their amusement--to be able to harm the living and to see new damned ones plummeting into the abyss--will no longer exist, and the gate of Satan's iniquitous kingdom shall be riveted shut, bolted by my angels, forever, forever, forever---a forever whose number of years has no number and compared to which the grains of sand of all the earth's oceans, if they were to become years, would be less than a day of this 'immeasurable' eternity of mine, made of light and glory on high for the blessed, made of darkness and horror in the depths for the accursed.

"I told you that Purgatory is a fire of love. Hell is a fire of severity.

"Purgatory is a place where, while thinking of God, whose Essence has shone for you in the instant of the private judgment and has filled you with a wish to possess it, you expiate the acts involving a lack of love for the Lord your God. Through love you conquer Love, and, by degrees of increasingly inflamed charity, you wash your robe until making it white and glistening to enter into the kingdom of Light, whose splendors I showed you a few days ago.

"Hell is a place where the thought of God, the memory of God, glimpsed in the private judgment, is not, as for those being purged, a holy desire, a grieved, but hope-filled longing, a hope full of tranquil expectation, of secure peace which shall reach perfection when it becomes the conquest of God, but which already gives the spirits being purged a cheerful activity in purgation because every affliction, every instant of affliction, draws them closer to God, their love; but it is remorse, anger, damnation, and hatred. Hatred for Satan, hatred for men, hatred for themselves.

"After having adored Satan in life, in place of Me, now that they possess him and see his true appearance, no longer hidden behind the bewitching smile of flesh, behind the shining brightness of gold, behind the powerful song of supremacy, they hate him since he is the cause of their torment.

"After--forgetting their dignity as children of God--having adored men to the point of becoming killers, thieves, swindlers, and merchants of filth for their sake, now that they re-encounter their bosses, for whom they killed, robbed, deceived, and sold their honor and the honor of so many unfortunate, weak, defenseless creatures, making them an instrument for the vice which beasts are not familiar with--for lust, the attribute of man poisoned by Satan--now they hate them since they are the cause of their torment.

"After having adored themselves, giving flesh, blood, and the seven appetites of their flesh and their blood all satisfactions, trampling on the Law of God and the law of morality, now they hate themselves since they see themselves to be the cause of their torment.

"The word 'Hatred' covers that boundless kingdom; it roars in those flames; it howls in the cackling laughter of the demons; it sobs and barks in the laments of the damned; it rings and rings and rings like an eternal hammering bell; it blares like an eternal bugle of death; it fills the recesses of that jail with itself; it is in itself torment because, with each of its sounds, it renews the memory of Love lost forever, remorse over having wanted to lose it, and rage over never being able to see it again.

"The dead soul, in the midst of those flames, like the bodies thrown onto pyres or into a crematory furnace, twists and shrieks, as if animated again by living movement and reawakens to understand its error, and dies and is reborn in every instant with atrocious sufferings, for remorse kills it in a curse, and killing brings it back to life again for a new torment. The whole crime of having betrayed God in time stands before the soul in eternity; the whole error of having refused God in time remains present for it forever for its torment.

"In the fire the flames simulate the specters of what they adored in life; the passions are painted with burning brush strokes with the most appealing appearance, and they shriek and shriek their memento: 'You wanted the fire of the passions. Now receive the fire set aflame by God, whose holy Fire you derided.'

"Fire responds to fire. In Paradise it is the fire of perfect love. In Purgatory it is the fire of purging love. In Hell it is the fire of offended love. Since the elect loved to perfection, Love gives itself to them in its Perfection. Since those of being purged loved in lukewarm fashion, Love becomes a flame to take them to Perfection. Since the accursed burned with all fires--except with the Fire of God--the Fire of God's wrath burns them eternally. And in the fire there is ice.

"Oh, you cannot imagine what Hell is! Take everything that is man's torment on earth--fire, flame, ice, submerging waters, hunger, sleeplessness, thirst, wounds, illnesses, sores, and death---sum it up into a single amount and multiply it millions of times. You will have only a shadow of that tremendous truth.

"Sidereal cold will be mixed with the unbearable burning. The damned burned with all human fires, having only spiritual iciness for their Lord God. And ice awaits them to freeze them after fire has salted them like fish set upon a flame to roast. A torment in the torment is this passing from the burning which dissolves to the cold which condenses.

"Oh, this is not metaphorical language! For God can make souls, burdened by the sins committed, have a sensitivity equal to that of flesh, even before they take that flesh. You do not know and do not believe. But in truth I tell you that it would be better for you to undergo all the torments of my martyrs rather than one hour of those infernal tortures.

"Darkness will be the third torment. Material darkness and spiritual darkness. To be in darkness forever after having seen the light of paradise and to be in the embrace of Darkness after having seen the Light that is God! To writhe in that dark horror where, in the glare of the burnt spirit, there is illuminated only the name of the sin for which they are nailed to that horror! To find no other support in that continuous agitation of spirits hating and harming each other but the desperation making them crazed and increasingly accursed. To feed on it, base themselves on it, and kill themselves with it. It is said that death will nourish death. Despair is death and shall nourish these dead ones in eternity.

"Even I who created that place, tell you that when I descended into it to bring out of Limbo those who awaited my coming, I, God, experienced horror at that horror; and if something made by God were not immutable, on account of being perfect, I would have wanted to make it less atrocious, for I am Love, and I was pained by that horror.

"And you want to go there.

"Meditate, O children, on these words of mine. The sick are given bitter medicine; the diseased areas of cancer patients are cauterized and cut out. For you, sick and suffering from cancer this is a surgeon's medicine and cauterization. Do not refuse it. Use it to heal yourselves. The duration of life is not these few days on earth. Life begins when it seems to you to be ending and it no longer has an end.

"Have it flow on for you in the place where God's light and joy make eternity beautiful and not where Satan is the eternal Torturer."

---------------------

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PostSubject: Re: The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil   January 29th 2012, 6:53 pm

You do not know how miserable you really are.

The world today lives in pride, they the world, believe this:

Human power, Human knowledge, Human Greatness.

Thus, nothing more than glorified animals with intelligence of how to live according to animal needs with some intelligence to make themselves feel great at least they compare with the animals they pity because they have more, produce factories, make toys, build cars, so forth so, invent new ideas, talk about what to conquer next in their line of work. Egos massaging egos. Devoid of true knowledge and the abundant life of the spirit, your souls are dead and deprived of life.

This is the part you do not get. Do not understand, you have been given a soul, to animate your flesh. Without the soul, you have no life, you would not exist in that shell you call your body. You are barely living and don't know it. You life is a few hairs above those animals you may have in your home, dog, cat, fish, birds, iguana, so forth. Your values systems is based on slavery to money. Money is your God. Among others. You think man has reached a level of intelligence that makes him, a god of animals.

When you die, that is, what happens? You haven't even reflected. Because you have no Wisdom to teach you how to prepare for death. You only think about what's in front of your nose, you can't even make bring things to workout as you would like without having to threaten.

Your destiny is yours, what you do with your life is your choice, free will. Free will something you haven't even contemplated. Did you know that you are being directed by Hell? When you are not in the Light, you are being directed by Hell, you are Hells servant. You reject God who comes to offer you, a 'god' another life besides the one up their I just posted.

Misery loves company. when you are in the same company as others, you don't notice. Misery loves company. Thus cancels in you the sentiment the reality of your misery to sugar coat it.

But, let me explain, once this coating, is removed, you will feel the sheer nakedness of your misery. But rather than have you go through tons of shock, so you won't die of a heart attack, --God's Mercy and Kindness--God sends messengers to have you come to Him without this great shock. Yet you reject. The Proud have no place with God.

The proud remain separated from His Benign Grace.

Meek and Humble people understand. It is actually Night and Day. Proud people live veiled or shrouded lives, covered by Darkness, keeping the Light out. For once the the veil is removed, the Bright Light of Jesus, would reveal your nakedness and you would thus feel true misery as you really are. A man just slightly higher than the animals of the field.

Men loved the darkness rather than the Light. For their very deeds would be exposed. Your misery would manifiest grealy, thus because in your own conscience, you know, you don't dare come. Only Humble people who understand come.

Peace to all
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